In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the often overlooked power of Project, Program, and Operations Managers (PMs), the PMs who hold organizations together behind the scenes. As companies cut budgets, these critical roles are frequently the first to go. However, eliminating the very people who create clarity, enable execution, and manage complexity can have long-term consequences.

This episode defines the distinctions between PM roles and highlights the invisible, high-impact work they do, like change management, stakeholder alignment, and process improvement. It challenges the myth that PMs are just about checklists. Indra and Amanda also share how these roles are evolving, the communities shifting the conversation, and why investing in strong PMs is investing in your company’s ability to deliver.

Useful Links:

• Generalist World: https://www.generalist.world/
• Designops Assembly: https://www.linkedin.com/company/designops-assembly
• Levels of Program & Operations Management: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17C_0-ITv4Sh3baLtnILEgImAEftDnd1uUjHo4Hpycss/edit?usp=sharing
• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback

Sometimes it takes an outsider to say what everyone on the inside is thinking but can’t express. In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the value and complexity of bringing in consultants, agencies, and subject matter experts to say the quiet thing out loud. They explore how power dynamics, organizational culture, and fear of professional consequences can keep internal voices silent and why external perspectives can cut through the noise.

Through real-world examples from their careers, they highlight:

• The benefits of outsider objectivity and “fresh eyes”
• When and how to bring in external voices for maximum impact
• The risks and resentments that can arise in these dynamics
• Practical tips for using consultants without eroding team trust.

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into the surprisingly powerful world of icebreakers, those sometimes awkward, sometimes delightful moments that set the tone for team connection. Whether you're leading a virtual kickoff, hosting a new hire orientation, or just trying to get humans to look each other in the eyes, the right icebreaker can ease social anxiety, build rapport, and foster inclusive environments.

They explore:

• Why icebreakers matter (even for well-established teams)
• What makes an icebreaker effective, and what makes it flounder
• Tips for adapting to different personalities, cultures, and formats
• Their favorite (and least favorite) icebreakers
• How to avoid common pitfalls and keep it purposeful

If you're leading teams or planning meetings, this one's for you. It’s all about creating small moments that invite human connection, without forcing it.

Useful Links:

• Where Should We Begin - A Game of Stories Pro tip: remove the NSFW cards https://game.estherperel.com/products/where-should-we-begin-a-game-of-stories-2nd-edition
• We’re Not Really Strangers https://www.werenotreallystrangers.com/
• Be Plucky - 1:1 Cards Pro tip: The Mentor pack is Indra’s favorite for ice breakers About the cards: https://www.beplucky.com/category/11cards/ Buy the cards: https://shop.beplucky.com/
• So… a collection of questions for deeper discussions https://www.socards.org/
• Creative Sprint Card Deck Can be leveraged for icebreakers; especially good for creative teams https://www.anotherlimitedrebellion.com/the-creative-sprint-card-deck
• Gamestorming Great resource for frameworks for business problem solving. Some can be simplified rather easily Site: https://gamestorming.com/ Book: https://a.co/d/hobgwn2
• The Messy Middle Matters Merch shop.themessymiddlematters.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback

Is it possible that the secret to better teamwork, sharper ideas, and a more connected workplace is... play?

In this episode, Indra and Amanda bust the myth that work and play are opposites. They explore how introducing moments of levity, whether it’s custom Slack emojis, playful team names, or low-stakes laughter, can actually deepen collaboration, trust, and creativity.

They break down the different types of play that can live comfortably (and appropriately) in professional settings, and offer guidance on how to bring joy into work without crossing the line into "mandatory fun." Whether you're leading a team or just trying to make your next meeting feel less like a root canal, this conversation invites you to rethink what productivity can look like, when you add a little play to the mix.

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback

"I know what that word means… but what do you mean by it?"

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into the surprisingly powerful skill of asking clarifying questions. Whether it's untangling workplace jargon, bridging communication gaps, or just making sure everyone’s on the same page, asking for context can transform how teams collaborate.

We explore the importance of shared understanding, the art of curiosity without judgment, and the sneaky barriers that keep people from speaking up. From why writing things down can make ideas more accessible to how fear of being wrong stops us from asking for clarity, this episode is a reminder that meaning isn’t universal and questions aren’t weakness, they’re wisdom.

Useful Links:

• Jeff Patton’s Illustrations for Shared Understanding: https://images.app.goo.gl/88HDkJVwpqHWvPvs7
• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback

What happens when life outside the office becomes impossible to ignore? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, we explore what it means to be human at work, particularly during personal, local, or global crises.

From the ongoing effects of the pandemic to sudden personal emergencies, Indra and Amanda explore how leaders and employees alike can demonstrate empathy, set realistic expectations, and foster cultures that prioritize people over productivity.

This is a conversation about acknowledging reality, embracing flexibility, and navigating that murky space between personal and professional life without losing sight of our humanity.

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters:www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback

n this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the world of self-assessments. Whether they’re assigned to us by HR or are one of those eerily specific online quizzes we can’t help but take, they explore the pros and cons of personality and performance evaluations, sharing personal stories and asking: When do these tools help us grow? And when do they box us in?

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback

In this episode, Indra and Amanda break down workplace information dynamics, exploring why some people cling to knowledge, others freely share it, and some strategically keep certain details close to the chest. They unpack the motivations behind each approach, the impact on team dynamics, and how to find a balance that fosters trust while maintaining healthy boundaries.

Plus, they finally explain their matching sweatshirts. Spoiler alert: It’s all about setting limits when you’re the go-to person for answers.

Tune in to reflect on your own information-sharing style and learn small shifts that can lead to big workplace improvements.

Useful Links:

• Don't Make Me Regret Sweatshirts, etc.: shop.themessymiddlematters.com/collections/dont-make-me-regret
• Lucy van Pelt - Peanuts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Van_Pelt
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback