In this episode of Product Design for Learning, host Greg Arthur sits down with Andrew Welsh, Director of Digital Learning Solutions at Instinct, a specialist L&D recruitment agency. Together, they explore the evolving recruitment landscape within Learning & Development, covering topics such as market shifts, AI's role in hiring, and the growing demand for data-driven skills. Whether you're a candidate navigating a competitive market or an employer seeking to attract top talent, this conversation is packed with actionable insights and trends you need to know for 2025.

Andrew Welsh is a veteran in L&D recruitment, marking 14 years with Instinct, a Manchester-based, employee-owned agency specializing in digital learning and education-focused roles. His expertise spans interim and permanent hiring across the UK, with a growing footprint in the US and Europe. Known for his honest, people-first approach, Andrew brings a wealth of knowledge to this in-depth discussion on recruitment trends and challenges in L&D.

• The market has shifted from a talent-scarce boom in 2021–2022 to a more competitive candidate-heavy environment in 2024–2025.
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• Permanent roles are down, with a significant increase in interim and contract-based hiring.
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• AI skills and data literacy are rising in importance, but true implementation across L&D is still lagging.
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• Remote roles increase competition, expanding applicant pools beyond local regions.
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• Recruiter ghosting and inconsistent job titles remain industry pain points.
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• Portfolios are essential for L&D designers and increasingly important for strategic roles.
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• IR35 and gig economy regulations continue to influence hiring decisions.
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Andrew shares how L&D has remained a personable, tight-knit sector with a community feel. He reflects on the post-lockdown hiring boom and the sudden market reversal in 2023 due to economic uncertainty.

Andrew explains how recruiters dig deeper through vacancy consultations to reframe roles accurately and why salary transparency is crucial for both attraction and fairness.

He distinguishes between reasonable tasks for permanent roles and the problematic nature of unpaid tasks for contractors, emphasizing value for time and fairness.

Yes—candidates must now work harder to stand out, as competition has increased and hiring processes have become more demanding.

Andrew admits volume is a factor but stresses the importance of communication, especially post-interview, and outlines what Instinct does to avoid ghosting.

A heavy shift toward contract roles (up to 84%) as organizations navigate headcount freezes and project-based needs. AI and data skills are becoming more requested, though adoption varies.

While elections don't bring immediate certainty, post-budget clarity helps businesses plan hiring. Andrew notes reactions to economic policies play a bigger role than policies themselves.

Mentions of AI tools in...

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning podcast, host Greg Arthur sits down with Tom McDowall, Chair of The Learning Network, to dive deep into the "Understand" phase of the product design process. Tom explains why this phase is critical, sharing practical advice and strategies on assumption mapping, stakeholder engagement, and data analysis. Listeners gain insights into balancing fact and assumption, managing risk, and ensuring that learning solutions genuinely address performance challenges rather than merely looking engaging.

Tom McDowall is the Chair of The Learning Network and a seasoned expert in learning design and product strategy. Known for his candid and pragmatic approach, Tom brings years of experience in tackling real-world performance issues through thorough research and data-driven methodologies. With a reputation for challenging the status quo, his insights help organisations move beyond superficial solutions to create impactful learning experiences.

• Tom stresses that the "Understand" phase is the most crucial step in the design process. It sets the foundation for all subsequent phases, and if done incorrectly, nothing else matters. He highlights that this stage involves rigorously examining assumptions and real facts, and the phase must be approached without shortcuts to mitigate unnecessary risk.

• Assumption mapping involves breaking down a client’s request into facts and assumptions. Tom uses this tool to clarify which parts of the brief are evidence-based and which are speculative. This clarity prevents the design process from veering off course and helps in making informed decisions that address genuine business risks.

• Tom explains that pushback often comes in the form of pressure over deadlines and budgets. He advises identifying who truly controls these aspects (budget holders, timeline setters, and key decision-makers) to build alliances. Engaging those who may even disagree initially can provide a more realistic picture of the workplace and improve the overall output.

• Tom emphasises the value of interacting directly with stakeholders and end users. While solo work can lead to faster ideas, it risks missing crucial feedback. He recommends a mix of interviews, roundtable discussions, and group activities to challenge assumptions and enhance understanding, ensuring the process is inclusive and reflective of real-world conditions.

• Tom loves the early stages of gathering data through interviews and fieldwork but admits that analysing the data can be a tedious task. He suggests that delegating data analysis to someone who enjoys it, or using technological tools to assist, can help maintain momentum without compromising the quality of insights.

• Effective data visualisation is critical. Tom argues that good visualisations should tell a story that stakeholders can understand at a glance—not just a collection of graphs. By clearly demonstrating the impact of potential risks and the benefits of informed decisions, you can secure stakeholder buy-in and move the project forward.

• Tom advises not to stress about perfection; incremental...

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning podcast, host Greg Arthur is joined by Charlie Kneen from Solvd Together to discuss human-centred design for a skills-first transformation. They explore the realities of skills-based organisations, the pitfalls of traditional competency frameworks, and how businesses can genuinely embed skills-first approaches.

Charlie shares his perspective on why many organisations are missing the mark with skills strategies, the importance of outcome-driven design, and how experience design can drive real behavioural change. They also tackle common challenges in workplace learning, the role of leadership, and how human-centred design can be applied at scale to shift organisational culture.

Charlie Kneen is a learning strategist and human-centred design advocate at Solved Together, a consultancy focused on solving business challenges through innovative design thinking. Charlie is passionate about rethinking traditional approaches to skills development, challenging the status quo in learning and development (L&D), and designing experiences that create lasting impact.

• Many organisations are rebranding traditional competency frameworks as "skills strategies" without changing their approach.
• A true skills-first organisation requires fundamental shifts in strategy, rather than just new tech or frameworks.
• Human-centred design helps companies rethink their approach by focusing on outcomes, not just structures.

• Competencies are often compound skills that vary in different contexts, making them difficult to measure effectively.
• A task-first approach focuses on what people need to do rather than broad, vague skills.
• Businesses should start with strategic goals, then work backwards to define the skills that drive those outcomes.

• Many organisations invest heavily in complex competency frameworks that don’t get used.
• There’s an overreliance on tech-based solutions that don't address the core challenges of skill-building.
• A skills-based organisation should be social and dynamic, rather than a rigid framework applied from the top down.

• Start with the end goal: What is the business trying to achieve? Then design backwards.
• Prioritise real-world experiences over theoretical learning. Simulating real challenges leads to more effective learning.
• Adopt an outcome-driven design mindset: rather than focusing on content, focus on the experiences that will drive behavioural change.

• Organisational change requires both top-down leadership buy-in and bottom-up employee engagement.
• Different teams and individuals may need different learning experiences to achieve the same overall transformation.
• Tracking data continuously, rather than relying on outdated pulse surveys, helps businesses stay agile in their learning strategies.

• Greg Arthur introduces Charlie Kneen and the topic of human-centred design in a skills-first...

In Episode 10 of the Product Design for Learning podcast, host Greg Arthur engages in a deep conversation with Nick Petch, a design-based researcher with over 20 years of experience in learning, strategy, and systems thinking. Together, they explore the intersections of innovation, learning ecosystems, and service design, challenging traditional approaches to L&D. Nick shares insights on how learning needs to shift from content delivery to fostering environments of experimentation, dialogue, and incremental innovation. The episode dives into the philosophical and practical aspects of designing for learning in complex systems, with plenty of real-world examples and thought-provoking concepts.

Nick Petch is a multi-disciplinary designer and researcher whose work spans learning, design strategy, and systems thinking. Nick’s career has focused on building adaptive learning ecosystems that thrive in complex environments. He is passionate about applying innovation to service and product design, creating solutions that enable learning to happen naturally within work systems rather than as a separate entity.

What does innovation mean in learning design?

• Innovation in learning is context-dependent. Without understanding the ecology of a system—whether organizational, cultural, or societal—true innovation is not possible.
• The focus should shift from large-scale solutions to small, incremental experiments that build "big ripples."

Why is service design critical for learning?

• Learning and service design intersect in creating environments where learning emerges naturally.
• Effective learning isn't about standalone content but about embedding permission, opportunity, and motivation into the workplace environment.

How can research unlock innovation?

• Research fosters a relationship with the learning context, allowing designers to work with the system rather than imposing fixes.
• Storytelling and narrative-based research are powerful tools for understanding what drives real change in a learning ecosystem.

What’s the role of leadership in learning ecosystems?

• Leadership plays a vital role in modeling entrepreneurial attitudes toward learning.
• Managers who create low-risk opportunities for experimentation help establish a culture where learning is an integral part of work.

Why is the current L&D model insufficient?

• L&D often focuses on volume and compliance instead of meaningful learning outcomes.
• Much of the content delivered is "authoritative knowledge written yesterday," which doesn’t adapt to the emergent and dynamic needs of learners.

How can organizations foster a learning culture?

• Organizations should focus on systemic changes like job-task-based learning and monitoring behaviors instead of retrospective analysis.
• Providing permission for employees to experiment, fail, and reflect can lead to significant long-term growth.

What does the future of learning look like?

• Learning will become more integrated into systems through narrative-driven approaches, real-time feedback, and even AI-driven apprenticeships.
• The focus will shift from creating content to designing environments that amplify signals of learning while dampening barriers.

[00:00] – Introduction

Greg introduces Nick Petch and the theme of the episode: innovation and systems thinking in learning design.

[00:40] – Nick’s Background and Philosophy

Nick shares his background in design-based research and why he sees learning as a systems-level challenge.

[02:38] –...

In Episode 9 of the Product Design for Learning podcast, host Greg Arthur sits down with Laurie Barton, a learning product designer and community-led advocate, to discuss the concept of "building in public" and its transformative impact on learning products. Laurie shares insights into how engaging with communities and involving end-users throughout the product lifecycle can lead to more effective, authentic, and purpose-driven learning experiences. They also delve into the challenges, opportunities, and lessons learned when designing educational products collaboratively with stakeholders and learners.

Laurie Barton is an expert in learning product design and community-driven approaches. She currently works at The Alliance, where she oversees the development of certifications and learning products with a community-led go-to-market strategy. With a background in EdTech and customer success, Laurie is passionate about bridging the gap between users' real-world needs and the learning solutions they engage with.

What does "building in public" mean for learning products?

Laurie defines building in public as involving the community and end-users throughout the design process to create learning products that are truly impactful. This approach ensures learning solutions are relevant, user-friendly, and capable of driving real-world application.

Why don’t more L&D teams adopt a product design mindset?

• Many learning teams fail to see themselves as product teams.
• Stakeholders often prioritize deadlines or preconceived ideas over audience needs.
• The disconnect between intention and implementation often results in underwhelming learning experiences.

What are the benefits of a community-led approach?

• Creates more authentic learning products by integrating real-world user experiences.
• Builds advocacy and trust by involving users early and often.
• Encourages continuous improvement through user feedback and iteration.

How do you decide what to include in your learning product?

Laurie explains how The Alliance balances user feedback, market research, and competitive intelligence to prioritize the most impactful content. They aim for users to leave with actionable skills they can apply immediately in their roles.

How does "building in public" help during MVP testing?

• Trusted focus groups or ambassadors are key for pre-launch refinement.
• Iteration with smaller cohorts prevents an overwhelming flood of opinions.
• Community involvement in testing ensures relevance and builds advocates for the final product.

What lessons has Laurie learned about building in public?

1. The Power of Community: Engage your audience to co-create impactful products.
2. Let Go of Being the Expert: Facilitate learning rather than dictating it.
3. Iteration Builds Trust: Embrace feedback and adapt continuously to create better experiences.

[00:00] – Introduction

Greg welcomes Laurie Barton to the podcast and introduces the topic of building learning products in public.

[00:30] – Defining "Building in Public" for Learning Products

Laurie explains what building in public means and why it’s crucial for designing impactful learning experiences.

[02:20] – Why Laurie Embraces This Approach

Laurie shares her career journey and how her background in customer success informs her product-led approach to learning.

[05:14] – Getting to the "Aha" Moment

Greg and Laurie discuss the importance of delivering learning products that create trust and...

In this insightful episode of the Product Design for Learning (PDFL) Podcast, host Greg Arthur welcomes Alice Thompson, Development Partner at M&S. Together, they explore the intricacies of marketing and releasing learning products within a global organization. Alice shares her expertise in training international teams and emphasizes the importance of storytelling, audience understanding, and relationship building in effective learning product promotion.

Alice Thompson serves as a Development Partner at M&S, focusing on the international side of the business. With years of experience in learning and development, Alice is passionate about designing efficient training systems, leveraging internal expertise, and addressing the unique challenges of delivering high-quality learning experiences in diverse global markets.

• Think Like a Marketer Early On: Start considering your audience and marketing strategy from the initial stages of product design.
• Storytelling as a Superpower: Craft compelling narratives to make your learning initiatives resonate and drive engagement.
• Leverage Data and Insights: Use audience behavior and feedback to refine your approach continually.
• Build Relationships: Networking and maintaining open dialogue with stakeholders are key to understanding needs and building trust.
• Test and Iterate: Start small, gather feedback, and scale up effective ideas.

"Can you explain your role as a Development Partner at M&S?"

Alice outlines her work with global teams to create efficient training methods. She emphasizes collaboration with franchise partners and owned markets to address challenges in delivering a consistent customer experience.

"Why is the market and release phase so critical?"

Alice highlights this phase as the bridge between strategy and execution, focusing on delivering relevant content through the right channels to the right people.

"What are common mistakes in L&D marketing?"

Alice reflects on her early missteps, such as overloading audiences without understanding their needs, and stresses the value of relationship building and audience alignment.

"How can storytelling improve learning product marketing?"

Alice explains how storytelling can create emotional connections and communicate the value of learning initiatives effectively.

"What advice do you have for someone starting in this phase?"

Alice recommends understanding your audience, leveraging the right channels, and continuously learning from both successes and failures.

Greg introduces Alice and sets the stage for a conversation about marketing and releasing learning products.

Alice explains her work with international teams and the skills required to deliver impactful learning globally.

Alice discusses why this phase is essential for ensuring learning initiatives succeed.

A deep dive into the value of understanding audience needs and habits.

Alice offers practical advice for professionals new to the market and release phase.

Alice shares a candid account of a marketing misstep and the lessons learned.

Alice reveals her go-to tools and...

In Episode 7 of the Product Design for Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur welcomes David James, Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning and host of The Learning and Development Podcast. The episode dives deep into the concept of "Leadership in Learning," exploring how L&D professionals can move beyond process-driven approaches to become strategic partners driving real impact within organizations. David shares insights on redefining leadership in L&D, addressing skills gaps, and combating the "conspiracy of convenience" that undermines the function's potential.

David James is a seasoned L&D leader with over 25 years of experience. As Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, he focuses on enabling organizations to close skills gaps effectively. He also hosts the popular Learning and Development Podcast, where he engages with thought leaders to challenge conventional approaches and inspire transformation in the industry.

• Leadership in Learning: True leadership in L&D requires recognizing the limitations of the status quo and driving change toward impactful practices that align with organizational goals.
• "Conspiracy of Convenience": The entrenched status quo often leads to ineffective learning programs. Breaking this cycle requires L&D leaders to challenge stakeholders and push for meaningful change.
• Purpose-Driven L&D: Defining a clear purpose and aligning strategies with organizational priorities is essential for building credibility and achieving results.
• Earning Credibility: Unlike other C-suite roles, L&D leaders must actively prove their worth through measurable impact, moving beyond popularity metrics.
• Future of L&D: The shift toward skills-based learning and internal mobility highlights the importance of proactive, strategic L&D leadership to address evolving workplace demands.

What does "leadership in learning" mean to you?

David emphasizes that leadership in L&D is about moving beyond the expected and requested roles to set a vision that inspires stakeholders. It involves recognizing where the organization is, knowing what needs to be done, and taking strategic actions to benefit employees, teams, and the company.

What are common barriers to implementing impactful L&D strategies?

David introduces the concept of the "conspiracy of convenience," where stakeholders cling to ineffective models like traditional training because they’re easy to understand and implement. Breaking this pattern requires courage, analysis, and a willingness to challenge the norm.

Why is L&D often seen as a "popular but not credible" function?

David explains that many L&D functions focus on popularity metrics—like attendance and satisfaction surveys—that don’t demonstrate true impact. To earn credibility, L&D must focus on measurable outcomes such as skills development and business results.

What differentiates successful L&D leaders?

Successful leaders redefine their role by building partnerships, focusing on skills development, and aligning their strategies with organizational goals. Persistence, strategic consulting, and influencing stakeholders are key traits of impactful leaders.

How can L&D professionals overcome execution challenges?

David suggests starting with self-reflection on purpose and assessing organizational readiness. L&D professionals should focus on areas they can influence, use data to measure success, and communicate their impact to stakeholders effectively.

In this episode of The Product Design for Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur delves into the nuances of production with Matt Ash, founder of Changeably and a seasoned expert in learning design. Together, they explore how to streamline production processes while maintaining creativity and quality, even when faced with challenging projects like compliance training. Matt shares lessons from his career, including award-winning projects and insights on balancing innovation with client expectations.

Matt Ash is a consultant, strategist, and founder of Changeably. With a background in learning design, Matt has spearheaded creative, award-winning projects, including films recognized at the Cannes Corporate Film Festival and New York Film Festival. He is an advocate for using agile methodologies in learning design to improve efficiency and elevate content quality.

• Balancing Creativity and Structure: Production thrives on creative freedom but demands clear scope, deadlines, and budget to avoid pitfalls.
• Client Collaboration: Effective communication and stakeholder involvement at every stage are key to navigating changes and ensuring alignment with project goals.
• Agile Production: Iterative approaches, rooted in discovery and regular review, can prevent scope creep and enhance output quality.
• Challenging Compliance Norms: Even compliance projects can be engaging and innovative when approached with an audience-focused mindset.

Matt shared his journey from creating early-stage e-learning to scaling an agency team and pioneering agile methodologies. His production philosophy focuses on consistency, audience-centric creativity, and aligning with business goals.

Matt discussed the importance of giving filmmakers, developers, and designers creative freedom while aligning their outputs with project goals. This approach fosters innovation even in traditionally rigid fields like compliance.

Using an audience-centric approach, Matt transformed compliance content into compelling narratives, earning prestigious awards. His work exemplifies how purpose-driven storytelling can elevate even the most mundane subjects.

Matt emphasized the need for clearly defined scope, deadlines, and budgets. He advised conducting a robust discovery phase and identifying key goals to prevent misalignment during production.

Flexibility and open communication are crucial. Matt shared how referencing agreed-upon goals and involving all stakeholders early on helps mitigate costly scope creep.

Matt recommended following the same structured processes you advise clients to use—pausing to reflect, sharing challenges, and seeking alternative perspectives to resolve issues effectively.

Greg introduces Matt Ash and the episode’s focus on the art and science of production in learning design.

Matt recounts his career highlights, including agile experimentation and managing award-winning creative teams.

The shift from dull compliance content to engaging, award-winning films is explored.

Matt shares...