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  • Interview with Clay Stafford – S. 11, Ep. 1

    Interview with Clay Stafford – S. 11, Ep. 1
    2025/06/22
    My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer and media entrepreneur, Clay Stafford. Don't miss our discussion of the ways the publishing and filmmaking worlds collide, so to speak. :) To download a PDF of the transcript, just click here. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. We are back with a new season of the show, which is starting its 11th year. I can't believe I've been doing it this long. And once again, I have with me one of the crime genre's most multimedia and multihyphenate entrepreneurs out there. His business, American Blackguard, does film and television production as well as publishing. He's also the organizer and promoter for the Killer Nashville Conference, which will be coming up later this year. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest, Clay Stafford. Hi, Clay. How are you doing? Clay (01:34): Hi, Debbi, Debbi (01:34): Gotta get you on camera. There we go. Clay (01:38): Hey, how are you? Debbi (01:39): I'm fine, thank you. How are you? Clay (01:41): Eleven years. Debbi (01:42): Eleven freaking years. Can you freaking believe? Clay (01:45): Stamina. Stamina. Debbi (01:47): It's insane. There's stamina. Yeah, I'm mustering up the stamina to keep it going. Yeah. Clay (01:56): Well, for Killer Nashville, we're coming up on 20 years. Debbi (01:59): Wow, that's impressive. Clay (02:02): Yeah, so ... stamina. Debbi (02:06): Amen to that, man. Amen. I hear you. Apart from getting ready for the conference, what projects are you currently working on? What's on your front burner, so to speak? Clay (02:17): I've actually got three projects that I'm working on right now. One is a nonfiction book and the other is a memoir. And because I come from a very eclectic kind of Appalachian background, and then Country Boy went to the city, and so there's some things to discuss there. And then I'm working on a novel now, the first in his series, and it's got a few short stories and poems and stuff like that out and some essays, but those are the long-term projects that I'm working on right now. Debbi (02:58): Very cool. It's funny you should say you were a country boy who found the city. I was a city girl who ended up in the country. Briefly. Clay (03:10): Yeah. So I sort of came back. I was a New York guy, a Los Angeles guy, and a Miami guy, and went back and forth from place to place in those areas, but ended up in Nashville. So I don't know if I'll actually, we can call Nashville the country, but it's back towards home where I'm from in Tennessee. Debbi (03:38): It's not quite as country as say, Bakersfield, California. Clay (03:43): No, I've been to Bakersfield. I love Bakersfield. But no, it's still, we've got our family farm back in east Tennessee, and so I've still got roots in that area and spend a lot of time in north Georgia and areas like that. So I get out in the tick country, so. Debbi (04:10): Excellent, excellent. Very good. Nashville is also a big place for music, correct? Clay (04:16): Yeah, they do a little bit of music here, Debbi (04:20): A little bit of music, just a little, Clay (04:26): Yeah. And the little community I live in is replete with country music and gospel pop performers, writers, producers and stuff. And so we have these tour buses that come by all the time, and I never thought I would live in an area where tour buses come by to point at houses and things and say, so and so lives there, so-and-so lives there, but it's just, yeah, Nashville's got its charm, that's for sure. Debbi (05:00): My goodness, that must be quite a thing. Having tour buses come through your neighborhood. Things have changed so fast in terms of the publishing industry and the movie industry and the television industry that I see them kind of coming together. Do you have any thoughts on that? Clay (05:24): Well, I think that they're definitely tied together now because we are in a position where we're doing IP, intellectual property more. That's what I focus on more right now.
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  • Interview with J.D. Barker – S. 10, Ep. 25

    Interview with J.D. Barker – S. 10, Ep. 25
    2025/05/04
    My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer J.D. Barker. Don't miss our discussion on writing across different genres and the benefits of collaborative writing. You can download a copy of transcript here. Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. My guest today is a New York Times and international bestselling author whose work has been broadly described as suspense thrillers, often incorporating elements of horror, crime mystery, science fiction and supernatural. That's quite a bit. His debut novel Forsaken was a finalist for the Bram Stroker Award in 2014. Several of his works have been optioned for adaptation to motion pictures. It's my pleasure to have with me my guest, JD Barker. Hi, JD. How you doing today? J.D. (01:32): I'm doing great, Debbi. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Debbi (01:34): Well, it's my pleasure to have you on, believe me. I'm glad you're here. I love that you have no problem with mixing genres in your work. I think that's awesome. Would you say that there's any particular genre that tends to be dominant in your writing? J.D. (01:51): Well, it's funny. I grew up, I've been writing my entire life, but I worked behind the scenes for about 20 some years. I worked as a book doctor and a ghost writer, basically helping other people get published, and one of the things I saw over and over again is an author would write a particular book and it would hit, and then all of a sudden they had to write that same book, but different for the next 20 books. The publisher just wanted that same book but different, and honestly, that scared me. I didn't want to get caught in that kind of hole, so I made a conscious effort from the very beginning. I'm a huge fan of horror. I'm a huge fan of thrillers, so I basically bounced back and forth, and I think my Wikipedia page probably sums it up the best. I think that's what you were reading from, but I describe it as a suspense novel as the common thread with little elements of horror, of sci-fi of this, of that and what that allows me to do. As long as I keep that thriller-suspense framework in place, I can branch out a little bit and the readers come along for the ride. It's not so different that it frightens 'em off. As long as I keep that thriller-suspense framework in place, I can branch out a little bit and the readers come along for the ride. It's not so different that it frightens 'em off. Debbi (02:51): That's really cool. That's great. So it gives you more flexibility J.D. (02:54): And agents hate it, and publishers hate it because again, they want you to write that same book, but different. But I'm finding that the fans, they actually enjoy it because I'm not giving them the same book every single time. I think it gets old as a reader too, so it allows me to mix it up and just keep it fresh. Debbi (03:12): Totally, I agree. Yeah, so you're directly reaching the readership as opposed to going through what a publisher thinks this should work, which is something I've advocated a long time. J.D. (03:27): Everybody approaches this from different angles, which is something else I picked up on over time. As a business model, publishers really only care about selling that book, the one they have in front of 'em, the one they signed you for. That's really their only priority. But you as an author, you really need to look at your business, your model, your brand, and approach it from that standpoint. And you can really see the stark differences. If you walk into a major bookstore, you walk into a Barnes & Noble and you're going to see pretty much the title of every book is huge. The author name is tiny little print at the top or the bottom. It's an afterthought because the publisher knows they have to put it on there, but they just want to sell that one title. But if you look around that same bookstore at the brand name authors, the ones that we all know, the household names, you see Stephen King, Nora Roberts, James Patterson,
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  • Interview with Deven Greene – S. 10, Ep. 24

    Interview with Deven Greene – S. 10, Ep. 24
    2025/04/20
    My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer Deven Greene. Check out our discussion about her medical and scientific thrillers. You can download a copy of the interview transcript here. Debbi (00:53): Hi everyone. My guest today writes fiction in the suspense and thriller genres. Most of her works involve science or medicine. She has a PhD in biochemistry and an MD, and she practiced pathology for more than 20 years. Her books include the Erica Rosen Trilogy, Ties That Kill, and her latest novel, The Organ Broker. She's also published several short stories. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest, Deven Greene. Hi, Deven. How are you doing today? Deven (01:29): I'm doing great. How about yourself? Debbi (01:31): Great, thank you. And I'm glad you're here today, so very glad that you're on the show. You live in Northern California? Yes? Deven (01:39): That's correct. Yeah. Debbi (01:40): What part? Because I used to live in Petaluma. Deven (01:43): Oh, okay. Well, I live, you may have heard of then of Orinda, which is a tiny town, but it's near Walnut Creek in Berkeley. Debbi (01:52): Oh, yeah. I remember. It's the Napa Valley, right? Deven (01:55): Yeah. Well, yeah. Debbi (01:57): I'll be darned. Beautiful country up there. Deven (02:01): Yeah, no, I like it here. Debbi (02:03): Yeah. So with a background like yours, I can certainly see how you got inspired to write medical thrillers or science thrillers. When you started writing fiction, did you find you had to kind of adjust your writing to be a bit less formal and more engaging, so to speak? Deven (02:22): Well, it's quite different than writing pathology reports, I'll say that. But I'd say that I've read enough fiction, especially in my genre, to be able to adapt pretty easily. And interestingly, when I first started out, I had a resident working under me, and she wrote a pathology report, and she did a description of everything, but she didn't say what it was, and it was like she was waiting, trying to build up suspense. I said, no, this is a pathology report. You have to say what it is. Debbi (03:04): Yeah, yeah. Just say it. Deven (03:06): Yeah. But it's different in what I'm doing now, Debbi (03:10): For sure. Yeah. I'm sure you do work in technical terms though. And how do you, what's your method for taking complex scientific subjects and making them understandable to the average reader? Deven (03:26): That's a good question. So I really like to put what I call sciencey things in my writing. That's one thing I really enjoy doing, and hopefully people will learn things. So I'll write something and then I'll go through it several times to simplify it, and then I give it to other people to read who are not in the medical or scientific field and get feedback. And a great one is my little brother who didn't know the difference between a gallbladder and a kidney, I found out. So he's a good one. If he can understand it, most people can. So I wind up simplifying. I try to keep it still accurate. Some people may find it too much. I don't know. They can skip over those parts, but that's not the main substance of my books. So I really like to put what I call sciencey things in my writing. That's one thing I really enjoy doing, and hopefully people will learn things. So I'll write something and then I'll go through it several times to simplify it, and then I give it to other people to read who are not in the medical or scientific field and get feedback. Debbi (04:28): You'd rather sprinkle it in than overwhelm with detail? Deven (04:31): Yes, that's my attempt. That's my attempt. Debbi (04:35): I think that's generally the way people approach it. I know that when it comes to legal terminology, I tend to, I used to be very, what'd you call it? Literal in the way I would present something, or very explanatory. It's like, no, no, no, Debbi. Cut back, make it less explanatory, make it more, make it more like fiction. Duh.
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  • Interview with Edward Zuckerman – S. 10, Ep. 23

    Interview with Edward Zuckerman – S. 10, Ep. 23
    2025/04/13
    My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer Ed Zuckerman. Check out his wealth of experience a freelance journalist, as well as his work as a debut crime writer! You can download a copy of the transcript here! Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. My guest today has what most people would consider to be a pretty interesting resume. He began his career as a journalist writing about zombies, killer bees, talking apes and other subjects for Rolling Stone, Spy, the New Yorker, Harpers, Esquire, and many other magazines. He has written two nonfiction books, The Day After World War III and Small Fortunes then moved into writing for television drama, including more than 50 episodes of the original Law and Order, Blue Bloods, and Law and Order SVU. I have that right, don't I? SVU? Ed (01:35): That's correct. Debbi (01:36): Alright. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest, Ed Zuckerman. Hi, Ed. Good to see you here. Ed (01:43): I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Debbi (01:45): Well, it's my pleasure, believe me. And wow. I mean, your guest post just tells an amazing story, and it struck me that you found the information initially in a book where a lot of people would've just stopped and said, oh, I got a book about Nigerian police. That'll do. But you took it farther. You talked to the author and then you went to Nigeria. Ed (02:10): That's right. That's right. Well, I was a journalist, but the first part of my, I've always been a writer, but my first part of my career, I was a journalist, ended up doing a lot of research and enjoyed the travel and enjoyed the research. (02:21): And when I came up with the idea for my novel Wealth Management, one of the characters is a detective from Nigeria who shows up in Switzerland to investigate a crime. Geneva, Switzerland is where the story is set. And instead of just making stuff up about Nigerian police, especially nowadays with concern about being authentic and not making who you're writing for, who writing about, I thought I would find and meet some Nigerian policemen, which was easier said than done. I can retell the story or it's in the blog post that I put on your website. So what do you? [I]nstead of just making stuff up about Nigerian police, especially nowadays with concern about being authentic and not making who you're writing for, who writing about, I thought I would find and meet some Nigerian policemen, which was easier said than done. Debbi (02:58): I will link directly to the website. Ed (03:00): Okay. Debbi (03:00): I think they should read it because really it's a remarkable story to read. Ed (03:05): The short version. I ended up going to Nigeria, which is a tough top. People don't go to Nigeria. Nigerians don't need you, and they expect the same. Tourists are not especially welcome, and you have to be all careful watching your step over there. People don't go to Nigeria. Nigerians don't need you, and they expect the same. Tourists are not especially welcome, and you have to be all careful watching your step over there. Debbi (03:22): Interesting. Very interesting. And the police are not always cooperative. Ed (03:28): They didn't see any reason to cooperate with me, but I did arrange some contacts as I described in my blog post that you can read on the Crime Cafe website. Debbi (03:37): I will be sure and put a link into the notes with this episode for sure. Ed (03:42): Oh, good. Debbi (03:43): Yeah. And you're giving away a copy of the book as I understand it. Ed (03:47): Yes, I am. I have a few left. Debbi (03:50): Awesome, excellent. Because I got to tell you, I'm reading it now and it's very, very compulsive reading. Short chapters. Well-written. Ed (04:01): Well, I did write for a TV for a long time, and for better or worse, the book is structured a little bit like a TV script with short chapters and a lot of dialogue and a good story I hope, but also a substantial dose of humor.
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  • Interview with Brenda Chapman – S. 10, Ep. 22

    Interview with Brenda Chapman – S. 10, Ep. 22
    2025/03/23
    My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer Brenda Chapman. Brenda discusses her journey from writing for her daughters to becoming a published author, her inspiration for various protagonists, and her writing process. She also shares insights into her latest series, the Hunter and Tate Mysteries, set in Ottawa. Brenda emphasizes the importance of setting in her novels and offers advice for aspiring writers. Check out the interview for more about Brenda's career and her approach to crafting compelling crime fiction. You can download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. My guest today is a Canadian crime fiction author with 25 published novels as well as standalones and short stories. She writes various police procedurals and mystery series for adults as well as mysteries for middle grade readers, which I think is really cool. (01:19): She is currently working on her new mystery series in Ottawa, set in Ottawa called the Hunter and Tate Mysteries. The third book in the series, Fatal Harvest, comes out in April, came out in April 2024. Sorry, excuse me. Her work has been shortlisted for several awards, including the Crime Writers of Canada Awards of Excellence, so wow. Okay. So she was once the writer-editor, I have to note here of the Pest Management Regulatory Agency, which really intrigued me because I used to work at EPA, but we can talk about that later maybe. That stuff is fascinating to me. In any event, it's my pleasure to introduce crime writer Brenda Chapman. Hey Brenda, how are you doing? Brenda (02:10): Great, thanks, Debbi. Thanks for having me. Debbi (02:13): Oh, it's a pleasure, believe me. And finding out that you worked in pest management, wrote about pest management to me is just fascinating. Brenda (02:22): I was only one of a group of writer-editors. Debbi (02:25): Yeah. Well, very cool. Still, we'll have to talk about that at some point. Back when I was practicing law, I worked at the Office of General Counsel, Pesticides and Toxics Division, so I worked a lot on FIFRA, the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act. What a mouthful, right? Brenda (02:49): Fiction is much more fun. Debbi (02:53): So anyway, when you first started writing fiction with serious Intent to be published, what inspired you to write for middle graders? Brenda (03:02): Well, my daughters were 12 and nine, and I was actually teaching at the time. I was teaching kids with special ed and reading with some of them, and I thought—one girl brought in a book to read aloud to me, and I thought I could do a better plot than this. And that got me spurred into trying it, and it was really just to see if I could do it. So I wrote the Jennifer Bannon Mysteries. The first one was called Running Scared, and I really wrote it for my daughters. And when I finished the manuscript and my youngest was reading it and she said, "Mummy, you write just like a real author." And I thought, wow, maybe I can get this published. So I spent my lunch hours trying to find a publisher and found one in Toronto. They took that first one and it turned into a four book series in the end. The first one was called Running Scared, and I really wrote it for my daughters. And when I finished the manuscript and my youngest was reading it and she said, "Mummy, you write just like a real author." Debbi (03:57): That's awesome. So you found one in Toronto then? That's great. Brenda (04:01): Yeah. Debbi (04:03): Fantastic. Is it a small press? Brenda (04:04): It was. They've been absorbed by Dundurn, which is a bigger middle press in Toronto, and they've taken over my books from that time and the Stonechild and Rouleau series, which is ... I went from writing for kids to writing for adults, and I did the Stonechild and Rouleau series, which is seven books set in Kingston with an indigenous lead detective, a woman, Kala Stonechild, and yeah, that series has done quite well,
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  • Interview with Carter Wilson – S. 10, Ep. 21

    Interview with Carter Wilson – S. 10, Ep. 21
    2025/03/09
    My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer Carter Wilson. Don't miss our discussion of his process for writing thrillers without outlining. You can download the transcript here. Debbi (00:53): Hi everyone. My guest today is not only the Publisher's Weekly and USA Today bestselling author of 10 award-winning psychological thrillers, but his work has been optioned for television and film, and his latest release, Tell Me What You Did, was a Barnes and Noble National Monthly pick. Awesome. He also hosts a podcast Making It Up, and is founder of the Unbound Writer Company, which provides coaching services, writing retreats, and online courses. So he is a busy man. He has also contributed short fiction to various publications and was featured in RL Stein's young adult anthology Scream and Scream Again. I'm pleased to have with me today Carter Wilson. Hi Carter. Thanks for being here! Carter (01:46): For having me here. Debbi great. Great to talk to you. Debbi (01:49): Oh, it's great to have you here. Thank you so much. Tell us a little about your latest book and what inspired you to write it. Carter (01:58): Well, I'll start with the inspiration. A few years ago, I have a buddy named Blake and he and I would always give each other podcast recommendations, and he came up to me one day and he's like, oh, you have to check out this podcast. Basically on this podcast, people can call in and leave a voicemail and leave an apology. And so I guess the conceit of the podcast is they would just play these apologies, and the human part of my brain thought that was pretty cool. The thriller writer part of my brain immediately thought, well, what if it wasn't a podcast? What if it was a confession? And so that was kind of the nugget of the idea for my book. And I don't outline, so I never know where my book's going, but ultimately, Tell Me What You Did follows the story of 30-year-old Poe Webb, who is the host of the nation's top true crime podcast called Tell Me What You Did. Basically on this podcast, people can call in and leave a voicemail and leave an apology. And so I guess the conceit of the podcast is they would just play these apologies, and the human part of my brain thought that was pretty cool. (02:51): And that's the conceit of the podcast. People call in and they can confess to crimes anonymously, and if Poe believes them, then they have a discussion about the criminal mind. And then one day she has this really creepy guest on who seems vaguely familiar to her, and his confession is that he murdered Poe's mother. Now, of course, Poe knows her mother was murdered. Poe actually witnessed her mother's murder when she was 13. But the thing that's sticking with her, she realizes this can't be the guy because Poe spent eight years of her life tracking down that murderer and killing him herself. So she's forced with the question, who is this guy? And if he is telling the truth, who did I kill? So that's kind of the setup for the book. Debbi (03:37): Wow, that's a very intriguing setup I have to say. I also, I just started it and the way you structure the beginning, it just pulls you right in. Carter (03:50): Oh, good. Debbi (03:51): It was so intriguing. It's basically like a podcast within a podcast. Carter (03:55): Yeah. There's interspersed throughout the chapters is kind of a cut up podcast transcript between these two individuals, and that ultimate conversation takes place at the end of the book, but you're seeing glimpses of that conversation throughout the story. Debbi (04:12): That sounds fantastic. So is this kind of a commentary on true crime podcasting? Do you have any feelings about why it is that people gravitate to true crime podcasts? Carter (04:29): I mean, I don't know if I would say it's so much of a commentary because when I kind of approach a book, I'm never thinking about what is my message here? I'm just thinking about, and again, because I'm not outlining,
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    23 分
  • Interview with Priscilla Paton – S. 10, Ep. 20

    Interview with Priscilla Paton – S. 10, Ep. 20
    2025/02/23
    My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer Priscilla Paton. Check out our discussion of her Twin Cities mysteries and the inspiration behind her dual detectives Eric Jansson and Deb Metzger. Download a copy of the interview in PDF. Debbi (00:51): Hi everyone. My guest today is originally from Maine, but now hails from the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, which invariably evokes images of Mary Tyler Moore tossing her hat in the air for me. If you're a person of a certain age, you'll understand. Anyway. Some of you may understand that reference. And in any case, she is a college professor from that area and she's now an author of the Twin Cities Mystery series. It's my pleasure to have with me today, Priscilla Paton. Hey, Priscilla, how you doing? Priscilla (01:29): Well, I'm doing really great. I'm actually in Arizona right now escaping some of those famous Midwest winters. Just for a very brief time though, I'll be getting back to the greater Twin Cities experience very quickly. I'm now retired from teaching, which gives me more time to make mischief and at least in my head, get into trouble. Debbi (01:56): I love it. Yes. Isn't it wonderful when we can write out these things on the page as opposed to actually committing crimes? Priscilla (02:05): Right. Debbi (02:07): Let's see. Tell us about your series. You have dual detectives, detective Eric Jansson and Deb Metzger. How was it that you came up with these two characters? Priscilla (02:20): Well, as you noted in your introduction, I've been transplanted to the Midwest. I'm been married to a Midwester for decades, and I'm both an insider and outsider there to some extent. Eric Jansson represents the Scandinavian Midwest as I've come to know it. He does have dark hair, but he still has blue eyes and the dark hair goes back to the Sámi people in northern Norway. So I got to play with his experience, his immersion in that Scandinavian-American culture, and I came up with him first. He was still a bit of a stoic. Scandinavians and New Englanders both are. So he was stoic. He wasn't that given to free and open expression, though he may have had a lot of renegade thoughts running through his head. He's kind of a rural bender, and I started writing, exploring what I could do with that character, and I found it was a little too quiet, a little too internalized. Eric Jansson represents the Scandinavian Midwest as I've come to know it. He does have dark hair, but he still has blue eyes and the dark hair goes back to the Sámi people in northern Norway. (03:30): Though he is physically active, he's athletic, and I put him aside for a minute and started writing about a woman who finds a PI type, who finds her cases by looking at the boards and coffee shops. As I was coming up with her, I was sitting in a coffee shop looking at a board, and I think that idea lasted as long as my cup of coffee and I went and then sort of like Athena bursting out of Zeus's head, Deb Metzger came to me. She ... as somebody who would rile Eric. Not necessarily be, not that they would necessarily hate each other, they don't by any means, but someone who would push him. In fact, in one of the novels that their chief joked something about, she says something about Eric being so quiet. He says, that's a good job for you. Draw him out. In a way she does it by annoying him. So it's sort of a vinegar and oil couple. But I tried to give them slightly different skill sets as usually happens when you have partners in real life and in fiction. So Eric is a little bit more the puzzle solver, a little bit more. (04:46): A couple of times, once he played, pretended he was a waiter. He is a little more on the edge of, I don't know if I want to say deceit, but he can be a little cagey here where Deb is more forthright and she is tall. She's about six feet in shoes or boots. She has kind of spiky blonde hair. She's lesbian. She can't hide easily.
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    30 分
  • Interview with Michael Kaufman – S. 10, Ep. 19

    Interview with Michael Kaufman – S. 10, Ep. 19
    2025/02/09
    My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is educator and crime writer Michael Kaufman. Check out our discussion of his Jen Lu series, featuring a brain implant character named Chandler. What would Philip Marlowe make of that? :) The one question I forgot to ask! You can download the transcript here. Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Today I have a somewhat unusual guest in that he's better known for his work in gender studies and his nonfiction books than for his crime fiction. However, along with his work as a lecturer and advisor, he co-founded The White Ribbon Campaign, a worldwide effort by men to end violence against women. And somewhere along the line, he decided to write crime fiction, mysteries. So it's my pleasure to introduce my guest today, Michael Kaufman. Hi Michael. How you doing? Michael (01:27): Great to be here with you today. Debbi (01:29): Fantastic. Good to have you on. Great to have you on. Tell us about how you went from lecturing non-governmental organizations and other huge bodies of people and starting a worldwide movement to fiction writing and to your mystery series in particular. Michael (01:51): Yeah, I think there's a couple of answers to that. One is that it reflects what I read many decades ago. Now I was an academic, so I read all that stuff and over the years, just increasingly, I've just focused, most of my reading has been in my first love, which is fiction, and a good chunk of that has been crime fiction and mysteries combined with the classics and all of that. The other answer to that I've always written fiction. My first novel, not a crime novel, but a straight ahead novel was published by Penguin Random House back a couple decades ago now. And so I've always had that interest. But here's the final answer to that. A lot of the work I've done in the United Nations system around the world, different governments, companies, you talk to people during a break over lunch or whatever, and I'd be there to talk about gender equality and inclusion and violence against women and transforming our workplaces and better lives for men and parenting, all sorts of things like that. (03:02): You sit down with a couple of colleagues and you'd expect the discussion would be really sort of super highbrow and I'm reading the latest whatever philosopher. People say, yeah, I'm reading this great mystery. And one of the things that's true is that for all of us, no matter what we do, the world of fiction and in the case for many of us crime fiction, it's a combination of both a wonderful escape, a wonderful entertainment, but also a wonderful way to engage with the world. Good crime novels, the page-turning plot. And we all try to do that, but they also delve into characters. You think of some of your favorite crime writers over the years, you might say, yeah, I loved his or her plotting or their plotting, but you also love the characters they create. You love the worlds. And also in the case of these, some writers, you love the issues that they explore. So for me, this is what I decide to spend more of my energy on is my writing, my fiction writing in particular, and to use that as a vehicle, both to be blunt, to entertain and to give people something that'd be really fun to read and enjoyable and exciting, page-turning, but also to explore different social, cultural, environmental, and political issues. So there's a multifaceted answer to your straightforward question. Debbi (04:51): Well, I'm with you a hundred percent on that. I have really tried to do that in some of my books. Yes, I've tried. Anyway, let's see. Tell us about Jen Lu, Is it? Michael (05:05): Yeah. Debbi (05:06): So what was it that inspired you to write about her? Michael (05:10): So my first mystery series, I'll just weigh them here. My Jen Lu series, The Last Exit and The Last Resort. I wanted to probably just came out of, I was visiting a friend in Washington DC. I'm affiliated there with a research center,
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