I have a fantastic conversation with Lonnie Wilson in this episode, diving deep into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality, systems thinking, and the enduring challenges of operationalizing his philosophy in the real world. Lonnie also shares how his initial admiration for Chevron's management practices began to unravel after encountering Deming's writings in the mid-1980s.

The episode opens with Lonnie recounting his experience attending one of Deming's four-day seminars. His anecdote about Deming’s instantaneous answer to a deceptively simple question. Lonnie reflects on Deming's often enigmatic style, particularly his refusal to provide concrete answers to complex management questions, such as what to replace performance appraisals with.

We explore the tension between Deming’s abstract guidance and the practical application of his ideas in corporate environments. Lonnie shares his journey of attempting to implement cultural change through Deming’s 14 Points, only to face organizational resistance and surface-level interest. This led him to develop pragmatic systems that bridged the gap between Deming's theory and the day-to-day realities of business operations.

Lonnie and I delve into critical questions: Was Deming’s refusal to provide prescriptive answers a form of intellectual elitism or a deliberate nudge toward self-discovery? How did his lack of direct management experience influence his worldview? Lonnie argues that while Deming's concepts were revolutionary, they were often delivered without a “method for method,” leaving followers to forge their paths.

The conversation concludes on a reflective note, with both of us acknowledging that, despite the depth and accuracy of Deming’s ideas, much of the corporate world has either misunderstood or ignored them. If Deming were alive today, Lonnie believes he would be dismayed by the lack of progress in management thinking and would challenge his disciples to evolve and iterate on his foundational work.

I'm still trying to figure out how to produce the audiobook for Rebels of Reason. This is my first experiment with 11Labs. It's not great. I will have to work on the voice equipment; however, it's a start. I hope you enjoy it.

I have a deeply insightful conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows in this episode of the Profound Podcast. We dive into the heart of what it means to think about thinking—a concept that lies at the core of the In2:InThinking Network, a community Dr. Bellows co-founded to carry forward the transformational work of W. Edwards Deming and other systems pioneers.

At the center of our discussion is the 2025 In2:InThinking Forum, happening this June 20–22 in Santa Clarita, California, and also available virtually for free via live stream. It's a gathering of minds, where humility, curiosity, and collaboration take center stage. If you're in DevOps, digital transformation, or operations—and especially if you're exploring how Deming's ideas apply in modern contexts—this is the event for you.

Dr. Bellows takes us on a journey through the origins and evolution of the In2:InThinking Network, which emerged in the early 2000s as a response to the declining presence of Deming-centered conferences. Recognizing the need for a West Coast community of deep thinkers and doers, Dr. Bellows and his colleagues created a space where engineers, IT professionals, healthcare leaders, and educators could unite in their pursuit of better systems thinking and action.

We explore how systems thinking applies far beyond manufacturing, touching software delivery, digital infrastructure, education, and even AI. Dr. Bellows shares why this kind of egoless, psychologically safe environment is essential for innovation, allowing both newcomers and veterans to engage deeply without pretension.

We also touch on the Red Bead Experiment, Deming’s ideas on variation, and the costs of overlooking systemic thinking in today’s organizations. Dr. Bellows reminds us that better systems start with better conversations—and that starts with communities like In2:InThinking.

You can sign up for the event on In2:InThinking Network’s website: https://www.in2in.org