In this episode of GTM by the Numbers, Brandon Redlinger chats with Jon Miller to rethink how marketing and revenue teams should operate when AI is at the core—not bolted on. Jon breaks down where AI is already working (inbound agents, agentic workflows that compress prep/follow-up) and where it isn’t (spray-and-pray outbound “personalization” without human oversight). He explains why to avoid multi-year vendor lock-in during this transition, how “AI-curated playlists” will replace rigid nurture streams, the emerging shape of GTM orgs (fewer SDR bodies, rise of GTM engineers), and how to measure AI’s impact through efficiency and effectiveness with pipeline and revenue still as the gate.

In this episode, we break down:

• Why bolting AI onto 15–25-year-old, rules-based systems is “lipstick on a pig”, and what it looks like when reasoning replaces rules.
• The “AI DJ” model: 1:1 orchestration that curates a personalized playlist of actions for every contact (goodbye, one-size-fits-all nurtures).
• Agentic AE workflows that auto-build account plans, research, and follow-ups so reps spend less time prepping and more time selling.
• AI SDRs: why inbound agents shine (speed + always-up-to-date) and why outbound still needs real human oversight.
• Measuring AI with hard ROI on efficiency (time saved) vs. harder-to-measure effectiveness (synthetic panels, engagement lift, pipeline).
• How AI will disintermediate your marketing (search today, inbox tomorrow) and what survives (experiences, relationships and craftsmanship)

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Claude (Anthropic): Jon and Brandon reference using Claude for building and experimenting with AI workflows and prototypes.

https://www.anthropic.com/claude

Lovable: “Vibe-coding” tool Jon and Brandon discuss for quickly prototyping apps/sites to convey product vision.

https://lovable.dev/

Clay + HubSpot integration: Used by Brandon to automate research, notes, and follow-ups in GTM workflows.

https://www.clay.com/university/guide/hubspot-integration-overview

All-In Podcast: One of Jon’s go-to listens to understand diverse viewpoints.

https://allin.com/

Christopher S. Penn / Trust Insights: Jon’s recommended source for staying current on marketing AI.

https://www.trustinsights.ai/blog/

From Impossible to Inevitable (Aaron Ross & Jason Lemkin): Quoted during the selling-time discussion.

https://fromimpossible.com/

Connect with Jon at LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonmiller2

Connect with Brandon at linkedin.com/in/brandonredlinger

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of GTM by the Numbers, host Brandon Redlinger chats with Jacco van der Kooij, founder of Winning by Design, to unpack why most GTM efficiency metrics are dead wrong—and what CROs should be tracking instead. They dive into the Bow Tie model, the rising cost of acquisition, and the untapped power of customer-led growth. If you're leading a SaaS revenue team and questioning whether your metrics actually reflect success, this conversation will give you the clarity, and the playbook, you need.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

• Why most SaaS GTM teams are addicted to acquisition
• How to calculate GTM efficiency and what "good" really looks like
• The impact of operational debt on growth
• How to create customer-led campaigns that scale
• Why post-sale motions are underfunded (and how to fix it)
• When expansion should drive more growth than acquisition
• Why modern sales trips should feel like “Lollapaloozas”
• The rise of HLG (Human-Led Growth) and what to do about it

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Winning by Design AI – “Talk to Jack”: An AI-powered assistant on the Winning by Design site that answers GTM questions and includes hidden “Easter eggs” for curious users.

Link: https://www.winningbydesign.com/ai

Pavilion: A community platform for reps and leaders to leverage for peer-based networking and customer engagement during sales trips.

Link: https://bit.ly/pavilion-membership

David Spitz Reports on SaaS GTM Efficiency: Mentioned as a leading source for analyzing GTM efficiency across public SaaS companies, especially in relation to CAC trends.

Link: https://benchsights.com/

Connect with Jacco

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaccovanderkooij/
• Winning By Design: https://winningbydesign.com/

Connect with Brandon

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/brandonredlinger

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of GTM by the Numbers, host Brandon Redlinger sits down with Bill Macaitis—the former CMO who propelled Salesforce, Zendesk, and Slack to breakout growth and now advises the next generation of SaaS disruptors through SaaS CMO Pro. Together they unpack what it really takes to build a capital-efficient, customer-obsessed GTM engine in 2025.

Bill explains why traditional last-touch attribution is broken, how to prove marketing impact with control-group experiments, and the mindset shifts every GTM leader needs in an AI-driven world. They also dive into aligning incentives across marketing, sales, and product, the underrated power of NPS, and why brand is the ultimate growth lever when budgets tighten. If you’re a GTM executive aiming to scale fast without burning cash, this conversation is a must-listen.

What you’ll learn in this episode

• The fatal flaws in common attribution models, and how AI-powered regression analysis fixes them
• How to design low-cost control groups (city, segment, or account) that finally silence board-room skepticism
• Why Bill tracks NPS and post-sale CSAT alongside pipeline targets
• A practical framework for unifying marketing, sales, and product around shared revenue metrics
• The comp-plan adjustments that stop channel infighting and start collective quota-crushing
• Where AI is taking attribution next—and how to future-proof your RevOps stack
• How to build a lovable B2B brand that fuels word-of-mouth and lowers CAC

Connect with Bill

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bmacaitis
• SaaS CMO Pro: saascmopro.com

Connect with Brandon

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/brandonredlinger

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.