What really drives bad behaviour inside organisations, and why do so many compliance efforts fail to address it?

In this powerful and eye-opening conversation, Sarah Cole is joined by Professor Benjamin Van Rooij, a leading global voice on the intersection between law, behaviour, and organisational culture.

Benjamin is co-author of The Behavioral Code: The Hidden Ways the Law Makes Us Better or Worse and co-editor of The Cambridge Handbook of Compliance. He shares deep insights into how laws and compliance programmes often miss the mark, not because they are weak on rules, but because they fail to ask the right behavioural questions.

Together, Sarah and Benjamin explore:

• Why root cause analysis matters more than intervention
• The danger of focusing on why something happened instead of how
• The concept of “toxic organisations” and how structural harm becomes normalised
• What good leadership really looks like: realism, resistance, and room for critique
• How punishment can backfire, and the 13 behavioural effects it may trigger
• What Compliance 3.0 could look like, moving beyond liability management into long-term prevention

Benjamin also reflects on the legacy he hopes to leave, his desire to influence policy at the highest level, and why magical glasses that reveal future consequences might be every leader’s best survival tool.

If you are a CEO, general counsel, or senior leader grappling with culture, conduct, or compliance, this episode will challenge your thinking in the best possible way.

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